tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post115767588371723353..comments2024-03-01T03:37:45.838-05:00Comments on Collin Kelley: Modern Confessional: Collin Kelleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03777180960376039699noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1164523793601759692006-11-26T01:49:00.000-05:002006-11-26T01:49:00.000-05:00Ah, yes! I *did* skim it a couple of weks back on ...Ah, yes! I *did* skim it a couple of weks back on the Poetry website. What gets up MY ass is the corporate model of poetry pedagogy. This guy is singing from Dana Gioia's hymnal, but in a minor key. I don't know if he grew up working-class, as Dana did. I do know that I'm tired of (white male) popular poet-critics who clearly suffer from corner-office guilt telling those of us who are struggling to pay for two or three years of concentrated writing studies that we need to get out and live more so that we can generate some subject matter worth their attention. How the hell would they know? The most interesting, well-read, creative-thinking, risk-taking people get into creative writing programs: just look at the jobs any of US have held and the evidence speaks for itself. <BR/><BR/>I'll venture that he's not gotten to know any students in creative writing programs, much less their work, much less how that work evolves within a very short time, and certainly not its fruition a few years later. He probably has his own stereotype of what it means to have an MFA. An MFA means that someone has taken the time to put his or her work before others for often-blistering critique, spent a concentrated period working on his or her technique, read and written and thought deeply about particular aspects of poetry, and came out on the other side with a body of "publishable" (YMMV) work and a better sense of his or her strengths and weaknesses.<BR/><BR/>One thing you've got to give Dana: at least he (and Mike Peich) made it possible for someone like me, who's spent the better part of my adult life working full-time while putting myself through the state u., to benefit from the Ivy League and Oxbridge discussions that go on at West Chester. There are plenty of highly talented and intelligent poets who cannot possibly afford such an education. We piece it together any way we can, and an MFA or Ph.D. program can be part of the patchwork. We're the ones who are changing the face of American poetry--I think for the better--take Jeffrey Levine (Tupelo Press by way of Warren Wilson College) or John Poch (GSU grad; Iowa's loss, U of North Texas' gain, who with Deborah Ager brings us _32 Poems_), or any number of others. I remeber when John used to drive a forklift as an undergrad in GSU's creative writing program. I walked away from a great deal of money and opportunity at CNN in order to pursue my poetry. <BR/><BR/>In short, if some Daddy Warbucks is willing to pay for me to go study Spanish metrical poetry abroad, my bags are packed, baby. Until then, I'll have to keep plugging away at my day job and my Ph.D., and find adventure (and inspiration) where I can.If anything, HIS argument sounds like a thinly-veiled class attack: if anyone can gain access to literature (read: proliferation of MFA programs), then the infidels are at the door (read: diss MFAs). <BR/><BR/>Now the CONFERENCE cottage industry, of which some MFAs are a part, THAT'S another story... when the same 12 people are the "workshop leaders" at multiple vacation destinations all over the country all year round, THAT'S a scam. Mix it up more, I say. I know some people have cult followings, but starpower does not a workshop leader make.nolapoethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01729185501953937947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1164521739633691882006-11-26T01:15:00.000-05:002006-11-26T01:15:00.000-05:00Hi, Collin--just ran across this entry from last m...Hi, Collin--just ran across this entry from last month and saw your claim that my argument is flawed. Would you please delineate your understanding of what said argument is? It's kind of hard to know how to respond otherwise.<BR/><BR/>To your larger point, that there is no bad poetry: clearly this is not the case. For example, you claim that there is something called "academic poetry" and then imply that it is bad *because* it is "academic" (whatever that means). It would be helpful for me (and others) if you were to define your terms here. <BR/><BR/>Is it better to have bad poetry than no poetry at all? Perhaps. (I refer you to what Francine Prose says about that other canard: whether creative writing can be taught.) I missed this tempest-in-a-teapot in last month's issue of _Poetry_, but sounds as if the author was trotting out the same tedious cliche' that gets trotted out every ten years. This has been done to death, and long ago. It's not worth agonizing over.<BR/><BR/>I am one who does not believe in the false divide between so-called "academic" and "street" poetry as currently conceived. If by "academic poets" you mean those who teach in universities, don't fall for the stereotype. Poets who teach usually do *not* have cushy endowed creative writing chairs (usually, they do endless rounds of introductory composition and surveys of literature), and the overwhelming majority write free verse suffused with the lyric "I." They also teach quite a lot of what I think you'd define as "street" poetry. I resemble that remark.<BR/><BR/>The current situation is not the same raw-versus-cooked recipe of the Anthology Wars era. I think it's counterproductive at best for us to redraw this battle line based on 50-year-old intelligence.<BR/><BR/>I have always written both formal and free verse (about 50/50). I do have a great love and respect for the history of poetic form and meter, in English and in other languages, and for the techniques that have brought us here over hundreds (and thousands) of years. It pains me to see that, once again, the fact that I happen to know "form" comes into this particular constellation of po-biz issues, even if intended as a compliment. While I appreciate your "red-hot formalista" assessment, some folks around town continue to labor under the misguided notion that I am some sort of iambic fascist, based on the fact that I read metrical verse at open mics (and actively promote other metrical poets' work to those who book features). The nearsighted who mistake me for a Republican Belle of Amherst might take a peek at the recent piece on the New Orleans Review in salon.com for an assessment of my free verse (or read some of it!). <BR/><BR/>No musician should be content to play half a scale. No painter should be content to use half the color spectrum. No poet should be content to write one style of poetry. <BR/><BR/>Too often, "form" becomes a convenient shorthand for "flow-free zone." Imaginary hostilities are imputed to differences in styles, to the detriment of poets everywhere.<BR/><BR/>I think that there are a lot of urban legends circulating about what it actually is that poets in academe do. Mainly, they read poetry and write poetry and (if they're damn lucky and win the lottery) teach poetry to people who want to learn poetry. People fear what they don't understand. The thing is, anyone who wants to understand poetry will have to read widely and deeply, and that usually goes on in the university. I'd put my money on the fine poets in the GSU workshop any day. They represent a wide range of styles and experience, but what they have in common is a passion for craft coupled with a highly-developed critical intelligence. <BR/><BR/>Gawd, this is long enough to be an entry on MY blog. Just wanted to chime in and perhaps give you/others some things to think about. Each of us goes about this in his or her own way.<BR/><BR/>P.S. In case you haven't caught it, check out the new radio show on WRAS 88.5 at midnight Friday-into-Saturday. Thanks to Kathy Kincer's hard work, you now can hear some of these fine yet underappreciated Atlanta poets read their work and talk about their poetics.nolapoethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01729185501953937947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1158255283928362162006-09-14T13:34:00.000-04:002006-09-14T13:34:00.000-04:00Nope, I have to disagree in part. There is such a...Nope, I have to disagree in part. There is such a thing as bad poetry, and that's when the poem doesn't do what I meant it to do when I wrote it.<BR/><BR/>I want a solution to the problem of poems being like mayflies, with just a tiny amount of time in the sun before dying off. The best poems being written are only being read by a few people--I'm not talking non-poets or uninterested people. I'm talking about people like me being able to find the truly great poems. How? I don't have time to read every journal, and I sure as hell don't trust that those journals would even be able to pick out the great ones in the first place.<BR/><BR/>I think there is more good poetry being written than ever before, and I love it and hate it at the same time. There isn't enough time in the world to read even a healthy fraction of what's being produced. There has to be a way, dammit. There has to.Julie Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06878713173193835861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1158237417292477602006-09-14T08:36:00.000-04:002006-09-14T08:36:00.000-04:00Right on!!!Right on!!!Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1158162330493202142006-09-13T11:45:00.000-04:002006-09-13T11:45:00.000-04:00Rolling Stone just did a very interesting and rela...Rolling Stone just did a very interesting and related article on the Rebirth of Music. How after declining record sales and all the moaning and groaning in the recording industry how Music was actually transitioning into a whole new beast.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to itunes, podcasts, and media savy bands the market's changing. More people are attending live music events and getting "into" music than ever. It's just the traditional music industry is losing it's gatekeeper status. <BR/><BR/>The same thing is going to happen to poetry. It's transforming. With YouTube, blogs, slams, readings and who knows what else coming down the pipe.<BR/><BR/>I think you'll see literary journals and academia similarly lose their gatekeeper status on poetry. <BR/><BR/>Poetry's going to be a raucus confusing mess for a while (but in a good way) as it transitions with the times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1158065323664145962006-09-12T08:48:00.000-04:002006-09-12T08:48:00.000-04:00Poetry is like pizza...Fantastic post, Collin. You...Poetry is like pizza...<BR/><BR/>Fantastic post, Collin. You've articulated many important things so well here.marybidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100986477346925113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1158000648182862852006-09-11T14:50:00.000-04:002006-09-11T14:50:00.000-04:00excellent rant, indeed, collin. thanks for this an...excellent rant, indeed, collin. thanks for this and for the shout out. brilliant post.bjaneprhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07212077947146090915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157933708516411402006-09-10T20:15:00.000-04:002006-09-10T20:15:00.000-04:00Yes, today is a red pill day. Mmmmmm. Tasty red ...Yes, today is a red pill day. Mmmmmm. Tasty red pill.<BR/><BR/>Nice rant here. Loved it.C. Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17270640200393742125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157863741541638292006-09-10T00:49:00.000-04:002006-09-10T00:49:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comments everyone. I do agree with...Thanks for your comments everyone. I do agree with Ron that some journals would not survive without funding from the universities and, of course, I did not mean all journals are the same. There are plenty of good journals out there...both affiliated with colleges and not...that seek new work and new voices. Search them out.<BR/><BR/><EM>...one pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small...and the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all...</EM>Collin Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03777180960376039699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157857659738603562006-09-09T23:07:00.000-04:002006-09-09T23:07:00.000-04:00Donald Hall published his essay "Death to the Deat...Donald Hall published his essay "Death to the Death of Poetry" in Harper's seventeen years ago. It's still an incredibly rich read.<BR/><BR/>http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16222Ginger Heatterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12837259481002216077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157856668226720382006-09-09T22:51:00.000-04:002006-09-09T22:51:00.000-04:00"The fact that many of these journals are tied to ..."The fact that many of these journals are tied to universities, where the pie-eaters make their actual living, is a whole other issue." <BR/><BR/>Collin, I know that you're referring to the "important" journals here (however one defines THAT), but one of the reasons that many journals are tied to universities is that so few people subscribe--without the kind of budgetary assistance that a university (or some other form of sugar daddy/mommy) can provide, many print journals would go belly-up.<BR/><BR/>The journal that I help to edit, West Branch, is a good example. If not for our university funding, we wouldn't be able to pay our contributors (big name, small name, who gives a fuck, just wow us with your poems and stories and you're IN).Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08416207541838290910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157850113314811732006-09-09T21:01:00.000-04:002006-09-09T21:01:00.000-04:00>>There is no such thing as "bad poetry."This was ...>>There is no such thing as "bad poetry."<<<BR/><BR/>This was an incredible rant, but very effective. I enjoyed reading every minute of it, and you changed my perspective a great deal.<BR/><BR/>You are right about what some people love in poetry and what others do. Like you said some yawn at Dickinson, but I find her great. I also like the formalists, and write some in rhyme and meter, but some people will think it simple and no good. <BR/><BR/>The point you made is correct: we all have different tastes in poetry, and there is no "bad poetry". Not what I used to think, but I agree now after reading your post.<BR/><BR/>Like your blog. I'll be back.M. Shahinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393257894148037599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157836031915551302006-09-09T17:07:00.000-04:002006-09-09T17:07:00.000-04:00Really great post! I really like it. Thank you f...Really great post! I really like it. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing these thoughts.Justin Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161484350184865575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157834150214826562006-09-09T16:35:00.000-04:002006-09-09T16:35:00.000-04:00There is no such thing as "bad poetry."Part of me ...There is no such thing as "bad poetry."<BR/><BR/>Part of me wants to say "Oh no," and part of me wants to say "Right on!" Hmmm, I guess I'll take the red pill today.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11435013887780629734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157805975085191882006-09-09T08:46:00.000-04:002006-09-09T08:46:00.000-04:00what a down n dirty uplifting post. thanks on this...what a down n dirty uplifting post. thanks on this saturday morning...SarahJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02497062670296130228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157771946450264242006-09-08T23:19:00.000-04:002006-09-08T23:19:00.000-04:00"poetry is not in a crisis, it is in an expansion...."poetry is not in a crisis, it is in an expansion. finally." -meMontgomery Maxtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12802362199202674977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157762311243724412006-09-08T20:38:00.000-04:002006-09-08T20:38:00.000-04:00yes. thank you for this post.yes. thank you for this post.michihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06477831910779342533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157745368112116042006-09-08T15:56:00.000-04:002006-09-08T15:56:00.000-04:00Brilliant Collin. Brilliant. I agree with every ...Brilliant Collin. Brilliant. I agree with every point.<BR/><BR/>The monsters are killing us all, or are trying to. Worse... they're trying to kill the words.<BR/><BR/>But meanwhile-- cheers to Barbara Jane Reyes. Truly deserving.sam of the ten thousand thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04378206265831223396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157738936440634522006-09-08T14:08:00.000-04:002006-09-08T14:08:00.000-04:00Kick ass post Collin!You've got me all worked up n...Kick ass post Collin!<BR/><BR/>You've got me all worked up now. I think everyone should read this post. Have you ever published maifestos/criticism before? you should. <BR/><BR/>This is really good.<BR/><BR/>and I agree with you, poetry is neutral. what one person hates another loves. <BR/><BR/>it's a business. just like the movies. you can have a great script but you still need a big name to sell it. the big name attracts those who might not ordinarily watch/read it. <BR/><BR/>once again, fabulous post!jennihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15572881547671631396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157728684424926942006-09-08T11:18:00.000-04:002006-09-08T11:18:00.000-04:00gots me hanker, gots me reared back,gots me locs s...<B>gots me hanker, gots me reared back,</B><BR/><B>gots me locs slung out of whack.</B><BR/><BR/>(whose name didn't you call here??!!! lol.)<BR/><BR/>in the words of <I>Good Times'</I> Florida Evans: <I>Dayum, dayum dayum!</I> you don' said it now, Pee Pee.<BR/><BR/>lovin' every dern minute of it. when Capote goes off, he gets down.<BR/><BR/>amen ... a-woman.<BR/><BR/>light!BLUEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13562104253189390414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157724259320856792006-09-08T10:04:00.000-04:002006-09-08T10:04:00.000-04:00I pretty much agree, Collin - nice post! - tho i d...I pretty much agree, Collin - nice post! - tho i do believe there is "lazy" poetry as opposed to "bad" - in Zadie Smith does an incredible job with this whole issue in On Beauty when the Ivy Academic poet takes her class to a Boston slam - omg, I want to read that chapter onstage at Java Monkey!Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03435265503219400645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157724210293131822006-09-08T10:03:00.000-04:002006-09-08T10:03:00.000-04:00Preach on, Brother.The only thing doomed to die is...Preach on, Brother.<BR/><BR/>The only thing doomed to die is a personal (and narrow) definition of what constitutes "poetry."<BR/><BR/>Change is scary when you're over forty.Carl Bryanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03528744359857732425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157722693189689422006-09-08T09:38:00.000-04:002006-09-08T09:38:00.000-04:00AMEN!AMEN!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5348820.post-1157719524236320282006-09-08T08:45:00.000-04:002006-09-08T08:45:00.000-04:00Re: "Even while another old fart writes poetry's n...Re: <I>"Even while another old fart writes poetry's next obituary."</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed! If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem!Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06602358126864479992noreply@blogger.com